Kaylee Hillinger 

Did you know people listen to our podcast. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

How many? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Well, I was at the Carthage meeting last week and people were talking to me about it. I thought it was just my in-laws. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I thought we just talk to each other. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

My question is how- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s like we just put these things out there. Like nobody listens, but we keep talking to each other and it’s kind of fun, so we keep doing it. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

My mother in law and then my husband’s aunt are probably our biggest fans. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Well, we got two, see? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

And what I thought was biggest, I only thought they were the biggest fans because I didn’t know that many people listened. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Well, see? People are listening. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

It was lovely and it was good to know. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

There are sick and warped people in the world apparently, that listen to this. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

We can just call it extension and move on. Love it. Welcome to the Round Barn. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Where are we thinking about today? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

We’re going to talk about- we’re not going to call it “fake meat”. We’re going to call it lab grown and cultured meat. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I like that word “fake” better. You know me like that’s just- what you all missed on this, because this is a podcast. So the look she gave me, I got the death stare over the word “fake meat”. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Be nice. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Which I will use repeatedly now. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

We’re here to talk about the science and business behind it. And not just your preference for eating- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Real cow. Yeah. Okay. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

And don’t get me wrong. I love real cow. I love real pork. I am an advocate of choice and an open market. I just don’t like to be told what to do. So don’t tell me I have to eat a certain kind of meat. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I think that’s the key point. Like I should interview you on this. Like there- you’re probably more… 

Kaylee Hillinger 

That was actually the feedback that I got at the Carthage meeting was I should talk more. Exactly. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Lowe should shut up. That’s exactly what they’re saying. Lowe should just shut up. He talks too much. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

The best part about this is the listener who told me that is right now laughing. And when he hears this, he will send me a text message. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Good. Wellm if he listens again. I mean, maybe I’ve wrangled his feathers so much. So what? So you are consumer. You would be the target consumer. That would be the most prized in the grocery business. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

I am, yeah. Yeah. I’m a millennial, female, and a mom. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yes. Like that. Just like ticks every one of the grocery boxes. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

She is going to come in and spend the money. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, you’re a big consumer, so what do you think about non-animal-produced meat, non-animal-produced protein masquerading as meat? Because that’s really what it is. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah, I’m- I’m trying to remain level about it for the sake of our conversation. It is not a choice I am going to make for myself. It is not a choice that I’m going to make for my family. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

What about your friends? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

I’ve gotten into some recent conversations lately. One was at a wedding and I had a couple of cocktails and I was like, This is probably not the time to talk about this. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah that’s probably a bad time for that conversation could get a little too real. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. I’m fine with choice. As long as it’s made from a space of awareness, with a- with education behind it. And so if someone is wanting to make a decision based on what they eat, as long as it’s coming from a place of facts instead of lies and biases from all of our friends at the PETAs and wherever else in the world, I’m okay with that. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Like, if that’s just something that they decide to choose, please do not push that on me. That is not the choice for my family. But I also need to respect other people’s opinions because I push mine on other people. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So what about your friend, maybe former friend, if you had a couple of cocktails. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Oh, no, it’s a friend. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Okay. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Very good. Open discussions. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Okay. So what did they see as the pros, like why were they pro lab cultured meat? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

We- I didn’t even tee you up for this. It was all about climate. That’s what I wanted to talk about. Yeah, they. They said that their lab cultured meat and their choice to not eat animal protein was because of the environmental impacts. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So not welfare. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

It was not a welfare discussion. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It was all about- it was all about global warming. So I find that interesting. Right. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

It’s different than the norm. Yes. This person is very educated. And so while I think that it’s just so hard to find good science on this into areas that you- you are not an expert in both. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, I would. So I find it interesting that they pivoted because I would go with the marketing. Right. The marketing has pivoted that it’s climate friendly. Not welfare friendly. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But I think that’s because the, the animal rights groups and I don’t put the- animal welfare and rights are very different things. Right, right. Animal rights are trying to claim, at least in my definition, that animals are coequal to humans. To be treated the same. So it’s philosophically- not philosophically, morally to me is. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Pigs and humans to us as- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, yeah, are not the same. That’s right, yeah. And we, we should provide absolute welfare for the animals that are underneath our care, but they’re underneath our care not equal to me. Love the dog. Pete is not me. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. Pete’s my dog. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Pete is Kaylee’s dog. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

He’s the best. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So I think it’s interesting that the animal rights groups pushed welfare, and that didn’t work. So now we’re pushing this climate change agenda. Really, the same groups are running the same different story for the same arguments. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. So this is always coming across all my social medias and all the news stories. The algorithms do what they’re supposed to do. And I click on all of them just to find out what’s happening in the rest of the world. And I sit on Illinois pork boards, marketing committees and things like that, so I try to stay in tune with what we’re fighting against as competition. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right, and as threats to the industry that I work in. So I see them all the time. But in the last couple of months, it has looked like there’s been a decline from what I’m seeing and the consumption of these lab cultured meats specifically. And UC Davis came out with a publication that said, I pulled it up just so I don’t get it wrong. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

But their summary was that. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Well, this is it. This is a new level for this podcast: facts. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Well, it’s a fact by UC Davis. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So I mean no, I mean, that is accurate. We didn’t just misquote something. This is okay. So everybody should know this right now, this podcast, we have actually committed to not remembering what our faulty memory says. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Instead of saying don’t quote me on this. I’m actually saying here’s the website. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

We’re going to read the primary source, new source, okay. New level. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

And their summary says cultured meat is not inherently better for the environment as number one, bullet point number one and bullet point two is leaping from pharma to food product is a significant technological challenge. And so this study was all about lab grown meat and the media that’s used not being climate friendly or- and it’s expensive. And so a lot of the summaries of it were just talking about how this media needs to evolve in order for cultured meat to be economical and to be green, quote unquote, green, whatever that means by your standard of definition, if that’s greener than how a pig is raised or a cow is raised or like truly neutral, which 

Kaylee Hillinger 

I would whatever, there’s too many definitions of that. But I thought it was really interesting because it not only talked about the cultured food and lab grown meat, but it also, by growing it in media, makes it a pharmaceutical product, which is you asked earlier about my choice, and that’s why I don’t buy it for my family. I think I look at the back of those ingredients list and go like, well, why don’t I just give my kid a bag of Cheetos? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s almost equal. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. So that’s my choice. But it was just interesting to think about it in terms of like right now, this lab cultured meat is a pharmaceutical product. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It will always be a pharmaceutical product. So, I mean, we can grow cells, right? This isn’t beyond the wit of man. We do it all the time for research purposes. Right. It’s a research tool. But growing kind of these primary muscle cell cultures are things that aren’t really just very, very simple cell structures. Right. So when we normally culture cells, they don’t have any structure. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

We just grow these thin single layers of cells, you know, in a piece of plastic, literally in a jar in a plastic flask. And they’re very simple and we’re using them for experimental purposes. Right. And so now you’re saying, I want to grow a lot of these things and I want it to have some structure and so can we do that? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Absolutely. They’ve proven we can do that. But to do that, that’s a way more complicated process and it takes a lot more stuff. And even growing the simple stuff, it’s all chemicals. I mean, it’s they’re not toxic chemicals. The cells live, but it’s it’s an artificial biological process. And so I’m sure that just the energy it takes to keep the cells alive is less than the energy it takes to raise a cow. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But if we look at the whole supply chain to get that media there. Yeah, it’s like electric cars. Yes. The car itself doesn’t emit anything. But if we think about the battery, what is all the stuff we had to do to make the battery? If we count all that in the supply chain and it’s maybe a different story. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so- from my understanding, which is not the deepest I’m not a- I’m not a molecular biologist. But you will get what we’re going to do with that stuff. And none of this surprises me. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

It doesn’t surprise me. But it was very- I hadn’t thought about it as a pharmaceutical product, like it’s lab grown. But I, I forgot that that means it’s on a piece of media. Okay? It’s not necessarily in like a little plate like we think about in biology class, but it’s the same process. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, it’s in a big steel flask. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

In that it fails. It can fail. There’s an entire quality check of just that media before we get- I don’t know the whole thing just kind of reinvigorated it confirmed- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It is very artificial, right? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so it’s again, we should be pro-choice. Yeah. I’m all about the choice. Now, if you look at that whole space, it was a venture capital darling for a bit. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

These companies, Beyond Meat’s the most famous. Right. And they’re doing plant based stuff. But it’s they were doing this, you know, huge investments in in millions upon hundreds of millions of dollars invested in these companies and huge stock market valuations. And they’ve all just cratered. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And I think we talked about this podcast a little before, right? So some of the quick service restaurants, McDonald’s, Burger King, those people. Right. They put the impossible burger, which is a plant based, is a slightly different thing. But they’ve got this meat alternative and this fits in the meat alternative bucket. They put those in the market and they flop. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I think as you talk to people in that industry and I’m paraphrasing here so this is not- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

This is where we’re not facts. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. We’re back to our back to the usual. Yeah but if you paraphrase what they’re saying is right, like if people are going to go eat at a quick service restaurant, they’re going to eat a hamburger. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

If they put the two burgers next to each other, one the impossible burger- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

They went into the quick service restaurant. They went to fast food. They didn’t you- didn’t go there- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

They didn’t go to a Whole Foods and select this. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, right. See, I didn’t raise it in my backyard. So I’m going to take this organic thing out of my garden that I grew. I mean, it’s like a completely different choice. And so the McDonald’s crowd has used this term flexitarian. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And I think that’s a really interesting bit, right? Like, I think these things will be there because people once in a while want to dabble in those things and eat that stuff. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But every day, I mean, if you don’t want to eat meat, you’re just going to be a vegetarian, you’re going to eat, you’re going to eat the plant, you’re gonna eat vegetable stuff, right? You know, and we do that in the summer. I mean. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s going out the garden now. Okay, we’re, we eat a lot less meat in the summer than we do in the winter because the garden is right outside the door and we should eat these vegetables and we’re eating 14 tomatoes a day trying to get tomato plant down right? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. You eat bacon on all of those, but- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Not always. I would. I would eat- there’s a difference. See, I would eat bacon on all of them, but then my pants don’t fit. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

But even my family like we go through my husband read an article once about all the centenarians in the world have bean paste diets. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Oh boy. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

We actually like beans in our family a lot. So I make different pasta dishes and stuff and use that as an alternative to throwing hamburger in every once in a while just to mix it up, purely just for fun. And we’ll go a few days. And I’m like, I really, really would love a pork chop. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But if you think about it really generation ago, you talk to my parents? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Never. Never would they just eat vegetables for dinner. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. No, no. All the time. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Really? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Because they had meat once or twice a week. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Oh, okay. I see what you mean. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Because meat wasn’t. People ate meat, but we didn’t consume nearly as much in that you go to the thirties and forties, you eat beans a lot because. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

They grew them. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, because you had them and they were cheap and people raised their own food. And, and so this idea that we have a big giant chunk of meat in the center of the plate every night is quite recent. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

It’s out of privilege. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s out of yeah, it’s out of wealth. It’s just flat out. Well, society is wealthy enough. We have meat with every meal. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so they had other protein sources, this idea of being a flexitarian and part of the time, we’re not going to eat meat just because it’d cost too much or it’s just because we don’t need it. It’s kind of like we- This is a silly- this is a silly thing. I eat in the summer, tomato on toast so I take- no BLT. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

That’s a half of a BLT, tomato. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And I actually don’t eat BLT. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

You don’t eat lettuce on them. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, I just eat BTs. It’s you take a layer of bacon, a tomato, and then another layer of bacon, you replace the lettuce with the bacon. And then it’s much better. Now you have it without the bacon- right because it’s summer and you’re hot and you don’t want a lot of food and you- You make a BLT without the bacon and out the lettuce and then- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So you’re like, Hey, that’s a fine meal and eat that. But I think that is a more normal spot than saying We’re going to go eat, we’re going to go have some. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Steak every day or. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Or we’re going to have a fake steak. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

If I’m going to splurge and have a steak, why wouldn’t I just eat steak? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

For your choice? Yeah. Agreed. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yes. Yes. Because everybody agrees a steak or pork chop, particularly steak. That’s a splurge meal, you know? You don’t do steaks seven nights a week, right. Would I love steak every day, sure. But I don’t. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

But why. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Why and then it’s also not as good if that’s what you eat every day. Right. Part of the fun of eating a big steak. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

It’s a luxury. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s a luxury item. Right. And so I look at the whole cultured meat thing and go, really? If I’m going to splurge to have a steak, I’ll just eat a steak. And if I’m going to have fake meat, why don’t I just eat beans? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Okay. So we’re diving back into that preference, which you and I are on the same page. So we’re just going to agree with each other. Another thing about this that I just couldn’t get over and I wish I would have had more time to continue researching was that they said even that it may not lead to environmental friendly commodity meat alternative. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

It could lead to lower cost pharmaceuticals because of the change in the media. And I thought, well, that would be really cool if that came out of this meat alternative trend. And this effort to take pharma to food, actually just changed some of the way that we biologically create pharmaceuticals using some of these medias. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, because if you look at all the new pharma products or these monoclonal antibodies and the things they’re doing for cancer today, they’re biopharmaceuticals. Right. That’s the hot- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yep. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so instead of just- historically pharmaceuticals were just chemistry, right? Like they just put chemicals together and made a new chemical. Is organic chemistry or just- just inorganic chemistry? And now they’re like, no, no, no, it’s biopharmaceuticals. And so we’re designing proteins. And so that would be a try and thought about. That’s a really interesting idea right? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

That if we improve the mass manufacturing of protein, which is basically what they’re doing. Does that lead to- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Because the easiest thing to chip away at is the media. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah the you know- I don’t know anything about- I’m not a cell culture guy, but it’s all the media, right. And so- and the conditions around it. But if you can optimize protein production, which is what antibodies are, proteins and and all of these biopharmaceuticals are just protein products. If I can optimize protein production in media, maybe I drop the cost of some of these cancer drugs astronomically. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

There’s our positive spin on… don’t say fake meat, cell cultured meat. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, it’s a… 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Let’s fix the health industry. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Well, and sometimes. Right just think about it the like many of the things that- why did we go to the moon. Well, it was cool. But if you look at all the inventions that came out of going to the moon, right, it’s all the knock on effects. And often that’s the thing with science, right? We go down a path and what are they doing this for? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But then somebody realizes that that solution is much better over here and they pick it up and they use it over here. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah, they’re looking for ice on the moon right now. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s a little water. You want a cold drink? You got to have ice. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Have you heard that though? They think they found ice. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, I know, which is pretty cool. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

I think that’s cool. Maybe that’s old news, but I just listened to it on a podcast the other day. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And the Russians tried to land a- didn’t work either, but the Indians did. And they’re looking for ice. So. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah, it’s. Yeah, there’s reasons to reinvent the same thing, looking for something else. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

That’s right. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yes. And I think that’s the positive that. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, there is there is likely will be positive to come out of this. But from a- putting my business guy hat on, it doesn’t look it’s a very good business model. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. And I’m going to keep eating what I’ve been eating as long as that choice is available to me. So, I mean, keep fighting for that choice, but I’m also going to fight for the choice. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

That’s what’s important. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

A good market to have. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yes. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

All right. What are you gonna have for dinner? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

That’s a good question. I don’t know. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Me neither. And it’s 2:00 on a Friday, so soon enough, we should probably. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, think about. We should have dinner. Yeah, we should eat at some point. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

All right. Thanks. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe and tell your friends about the Round Barn podcast available on any of the podcatchers of your choice. In addition to this podcast, we offer a wide range of learning opportunities, including a master of veterinary science degree. We’re accepting applications for the spring 2024 semester. To learn more about this program, please visit vetmed.Illinois.edu/MVS. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Thanks for listening.