Dr. Jim Lowe 

We’re back in the saddle. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

We’re back in the saddle. We are back in the school year. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

All of this school year, like all of it. And it’s like we’re the third week in and somehow it was going to be the first week and then and now it’s the third week. And I don’t know what happened. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

You got a little busy there that first week of school. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s a busy time of year, doc. It’s a busy time of year. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

I had my podcast stuff sitting in your office for three weeks now. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It was a subtle hint. I didn’t always get the subtleties. I’m very good at. Subtle. I mean, I got the message when you set it on my desk and turn it on, I’m like, Oh, I guess I have to turn around and record. Okay. Yes, Kaylee, we can do this. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Well welcome to The Round Barn. It’s us again. Jim and Kaylee. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Doing our thing. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

I do want to talk about school being back in session. Classes started. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

We’re back with the students. All kinds of them. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

So we’re three weeks in. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Three weeks in? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. It’s my first fall at U of I as not a student. I had many falls here as a student. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. And it’s like you just started in the summer, so you kind of hit the low and then, like. It’s like, kind of so chilled out and relaxed. A completely different place in the summer than it is from September to December. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. And I got a new office. So my office is in the lockers hallway of the newest students. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Next to the restrooms. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Next to the restrooms. Yeah. So it’s a happening busy place. And then I also see the looks on their faces of just that first week of excitement to now being a little worn down and things are changing and evolving. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And they have an exam next week. And so they’ll really be- they go from excited to stressed out and sick. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Oh, great. Well, I’m just getting over all of that. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, it’s it’s it’s a pretty exciting. Yes, it’s a predictable pattern. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. Well, that stinks. Nice little stress factor in there. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. And they get a little stressed and so it’s all yeah. And the first years, which you’re seeing the class of 2027 which I have to remember, they had a quiz a week ago I believe. And so they had a little stress, a little practice quiz to figure out how to be a a veterinary student. And so, yes, there’s some stress there. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And then we have our masters students fully on board and we’re teaching them and we’re late doing this because I was trying to figure out what we’re teaching the master’s students. And so lots and lots and lots happening. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

A lot of learning happening. So what I really liked that I didn’t realize is that all of the students here on campus at the college vet med where the badges with their year. So the youngest students say class of 2027 the first year and then the fourth year say 2024 obviously the respected graduating year. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yep. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

As if you can’t tell by looking at them, you can see the visual confirmation on their badge. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I mean. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

You give them their lot number and. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, I’m a food animal guy. I wanted to put an ear tag in them and they said that was inappropriate, but I said, We’re going to badge em. Might be easier. Just look at their ears. I mean, that’s yeah, they said no, not a big bangle tag that was appropriate. So yeah, we make it more badge. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

So that first week I was looking at them and just thinking about all the differences of the things that all of these students and these people and what they’ve gone through and are going to go through with vet school. So the ones class of 2024, the fourth year students, they started in August of 2019. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. Pre-pandemic. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Obviously before the entire world changed. So that’s what I want to chat about today is coming in as a first year student in August 2019 versus coming in in August 2023. And what kind of changes that these students have in their education? The way we teach them and what they’re coming out of school with. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, it’s so the- if you look at the fourth year class, right, so first year for everybody that’s not intimately involved with vet school curriculums or have suffered through it. I mean, completed it. The first year is really anatomy and function in almost all the schools and that’s what we do. So kind of structure and function and so they have anatomy lab and they dissect things and they spend all this time. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So it’s very hands on like all afternoon, three days a week. That’s what they’re downstairs doing. And obviously this fourth year class didn’t do that. Well, they did it. And then they stopped that in March. And then the third year class never got started because- they kind of got started because they started in the fall of 2020 and we were kind of on campus non and they tried to do some stuff so they kind of had a half anatomy lab. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so the last two years we’ve been back full bore, but I think as we look at students, their learning habits have changed. So we don’t know enough about the first years. I haven’t done anything with the first years yet, but when they all went online. So we record all of our lectures. So we stand in the lecture hall and talk with students and lecture. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

And you’ve always done that? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, we’ve done that. We do that for multiple reasons, a way for them to study. It’s one of the ways we comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act. So there’s a record. So right if we have people who are in different learning styles or learning abilities, right? That’s one of the ways we do that. And they’re not live recorded. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I mean, they’re recorded live. They’re not displayed live. So it’s not like, oh, there’s this lecture and you can watch the video. They’re posted after the lecture goes up. But when they were on live, we were actually just lecturing live on video, right? We’re zooming during the pandemic. All these students experienced this virtual learning learning thing. And obviously we’re in the online learning learning business around here. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So I’d like to separate these things. We didn’t do online, we did a remote classroom, which is a different thing than online learning. And so they did this remote classroom thing. And so they’ve gotten very different habits. I think we’ve trained them. They don’t need to come to class. They can just watch the video because that’s what they did. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so we’ve dropped on interaction and so they’re not as good at like, Hey, how do I ask questions and what do I do and how do I interact with faculty in class? And so that’s that’s a big shift. They haven’t had the chance. And I’m thinking about the fourth years now. They haven’t practiced some of those skills as much and the current fourth year class is in a much better place than the class that graduated in May. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Because they did a big chunk of their vet school remotely and so they didn’t get that interaction stuff. So there’s all this kind of piece, peer personal- personal inner skill stuff, right. We all value and part of coming to school. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Mentorships and relationships. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, and part of coming to college right. Is that grow up bit and that kind of… non intellectual development but the social “how do I be a professional” development or “how do I become an adult” development. And I think what we see are some of the- particularly the class that just graduated them not being here was, was hard on them and their performance suggested that. They- it was harder on them in fourth year. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

They struggled adapting. They- So the fourth year curriculum they’re in the clinic, they’re doing experiential learning all the time. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And we do some experiential learning during the first year of the curriculum and the second year they spend about eight weeks doing some experiential stuff in the clinic. Well, some of those classes and I forget which classes, but they didn’t have that because we were on COVID, right? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

So they just- they were just canceled. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Well, we did it online. We did experiential learning online, which is not the point of it. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

By definition is not- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, it doesn’t work. That’s what you had to do. I’m not. That’s what everybody did. Right? It was- We’re going to make this- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Figure it out. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

We’re going to figure this out. But because they didn’t have that when they got to fourth year, you’re like, Oh, how…? We’re a little behind here, kids. Got a little make up to do. And they and they’re bright and motivated and that but you realize what we shaped now as we’re looking at the students that went through undergraduate in virtual or distance learning. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Boy there are some habits there to that and they’re missing some gaps and… What do you mean the study stuff? And this stuff comes at me like a fire hose and this is oh my God, what are we doing? And and so we’ve created some gaps in the educational system. I think there was something AP this week or last week, something in the news article about math scores and what COVID and virtual learning did to math proficiency. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And this was K through 12. And so I think what we’re seeing today is the tip of the iceberg. It’s the- we’re going to- that’s going to ramp up. It’s going to roll up the ramifications for a long period of time. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah, I’m- I’m curious what the consequences are in the workforce this year and in the next couple of years based on those that had those gaps in higher education that are now entering the workforce. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And we have a little bit of evidence. So it’s not been talked about broadly, but the percentage of students nationally passing the board exam was at an all time low last year. So the class of 2023. So we’re- we’re pretty excited. We were 6% above the national average. However, however comma, the national average was low. And the number that didn’t do very well didn’t pass it. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

They can take it twice. The number that didn’t pass it the first time was historically low. Like bad, bad, bad for everyone, including us. And we did. We our students rebounded quite nicely. They buckled down. But I think the anecdotal stories are is that those students didn’t know how to study, they had developed some study habits that because it was virtual and what they’re like there, those are learned skills to study and do things. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

And retain for a long periods of time instead of immediate use. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yes. Yeah. Pump and dump. Right. And they. Yeah. And those skills we didn’t develop, right? And because of the learning and it’s not that those kids aren’t capable, that wasn’t the thing. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But something happened and they’re not- they didn’t do as well as what we’d like to see them do. I would tell. So that’s anecdotally first we’ve got some “ooh they didn’t retain information maybe as well as what we’d hoped”. And that number had been down for a couple of years and it was bottomed out last year. And what we’re hoping is because these fourth years they’ll take those exams in November, we’ll know about it late spring. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But these fourth years have had a more normal experience. And so let’s hope that that more normal experience leads them to have a more normal approach to the board exam. It’s a lot of- a lot of veterinarians and not a license. Nationally. The other angle we’ve got is, and this is purely anecdotal, so this is right, the plural of anecdotes is not data. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So this is anecdotes not not- not data. And I think that’s an- so don’t anyone overinterpret this. But my casual conversations, which are probably highly biased with who calls me and who I talk to. So we have this extension roll, right? So I get a lot of phone calls from practitioners and interactions and emails and discussions and in those forums. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And I try to follow up on our students, the food animal types that I’ve been around. Okay, how are they doing? You know, so that’s kind of the milieu of the people I’m talking to. So they could be biased or they are biased. But I think the general commentary is, Whoa, what’s wrong with them? These kids are smart. I don’t know what they’re doing. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so and “they don’t know what they’re doing” is not medical. It’s the whole social bit of how do I survive in the workplace? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

They learned what they needed to know from the books, but they didn’t learn the interaction and missed out on how to be a professional vet. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. All that other soft stuff that we we don’t measure very well, but we hope happens. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Well and I don’t- you don’t necessarily go into it with a teaching plan. You go into it with guiding them through an experience. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Right. It’s a very good way to put it. There isn’t a formal part of that curriculum. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. So it’s not like you even could tackle making that up in a remote setting. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, that’s a really good point because what- that’s a byproduct of the system we build to educate them. Then you hope that osmotically they get. It’s like you don’t have that as part of your undergraduate curriculum. Just, you just hope that that comes as part of the curriculum. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And clearly that got crossed out because the way we had to teach and I think again it’s anecdotes, it’s not data. But there is a, it’s a much rougher transition into the workforce than what it’s been in the past. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And there’s been discussions. Is it generational, is it just the kids? You know. But yeah, anecdotally, but it looks like this- how we taught them and taking out that social structure has got it- got a big problem. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Now you’re going to say somebody should say, well, oh, you do online classes. What? You’re saying that sucks. And I think that’s where I want to separate online versus distance. So when we teach online, you design a course very, very differently. In fact, you don’t really lecture. You design a lot of activities. You give them it’s- it’s much more self-directed learning and you try to create more active learning because you can’t get in the classroom and engage them. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so you have to design a course. I would teach the material very, very differently if I knew I was doing it online. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Than if I’m going to do it in the classroom. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. And again, in online. You’re teaching someone a concept or skill and not necessarily how to be as a person. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yes, exactly. Right. And we’re doing online stuff, not for- for working adults, basically. And I think that’s a very different- A. they’re mature. I mean, we’ve seen some of the master students coming in. Right. We’ve got a lot of kind of recent college grads now. And we started with kind of quasi old people like me. Right? So- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Hey be careful. They might be listening. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I know. But like in their mid forties, I’m way older than that. But you have these mature adult learners, right? And we had a meeting yesterday and they’re like, well what’s changed in the program? And I think the big thing is right, when you have mid-career people in a course and they’re trying to learn there’s little tolerance for B.S.. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Because their reasons for a learning and committing that time are totally different. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

That’s exactly right. They don’t want superfluous activities. I want to know these things or I want you to help me grow this way. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. Here’s my objective. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

They’re not prescriptive. I want to be better at this. And so they’re very willing to work at that. And as an instructor, they push you, right? It’s much more, yeah, here’s the material and here’s some activities, but you end up doing a lot more individualization because you’re like, oh, you need. Oh, you want- Okay, yeah. Here, why don’t you do this and you make the course bit flexible. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so you’re doing that and so remote and that standpoint is, is quite good. It’s flexible for them. You can get them stuff. They’re very self-motivated, self-training. Then you come back to these kind of recent college grads that have been taught, Oh, I sit in class and I do these things and they don’t have life experience. The online thing we can do, but it has to be much more structured in the activities, has to be there’s much less- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

We have to help them be self-directed in their learning instead of them naturally being self-trained in their learning. And so I view it as we teach that the recent college grad online, we have to push to be self-directed learners and with the mid-career people, they’re pulling us. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yes. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s right. We as instructors are being pulled to help them educate. And in the recent college grad, we’re pushing them to learn to be a self-directed learner. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And those are big differences. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So as you take that, I say, okay, well let’s go back. What do we can do with college kids? So 19 year olds instead of 22 year olds. Not sure even there that online- that other development stuff’s pretty important. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

The soft development. And clearly K through 12 I don’t- I’m not the one teaching kids, little kids but it seems to me the social’s so important there that if you’re not doing it- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Absolutely. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And I think that is a- is a, you know working with adults even that students are based- you know they’re 22, they’re adults even working with that, it really is… I don’t wanna say scary to me, but it’s I think we are going to have to figure a lot of things out that they- because COVID pandemic had things stunted their other development, their soft development, they may know the things, but they don’t have the other skills. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

That there’s going to have to be some chasing going on as we think about vet students. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

So you said- I’m going to backtrack a little bit. So we’re talking about like going and getting a DVM degree and coming to the College of VetMed for that. You said we’re on this. It’s a more normal learning experience for these first year and second years then opposed to the class that just graduated. Are there things from that class that- where you had to pivot and say, Oh, shoot, I have to teach them differently to do this that you’ve actually kept and maintained? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

I mean, I don’t think the curriculum- the base curriculum hasn’t changed. That’s a huge, huge shift. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Correct. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

But are there other pieces of teaching styles or approaches that stayed? Or did you just like flip the switch and it went back to a quote unquote normal prepandemic? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, I think it went- I don’t I’m not close enough with every faculty. Only the faculty involved in what I teach. I’m not close enough to probably answer that completely. But my sense is, is that we didn’t really adapt to teach online. We kind of took what we had just taught it okay because there was no time to lose sight. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. And you’re so here, you are, March 15th or whatever it was of 2020 and March 16th, you’re supposed to- we had a week. And so the first week was literally, how do you… Whoa whoa whoa, how do we get the zoom setup? And there was this mechanistic thing. And so you just took what you had and delivered it differently. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And then in that fall, when we came back, it was still so uncertain about what you were going to do and how we were going to. It really became about the mechanism of delivery, not the pedagogy or how you should teach. Does that make sense? It was it was- and because it was- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

So here’s what I’m going to teach. Am I going to do it standing in front of a room or on Zoom instead of altering it. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. Because it takes- you would say oh could we have done it better. 100%. There’s no one around here to say we couldn’t have done it better. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Across the world. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Across the world there is nobody pushing back. We did what we could do. It actually is probably better than it could have been. I mean, if you look at I mean, there were some really heroic efforts to try to make it work. If you would have redesigned those courses, just doing the coursework that we do, you probably need a year to a year and a half of all the faculty doing was redesigning courses to go teach them appropriately as an online versus a distance. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so I think is somebody going to build an online vet school? Yeah, somebody will at some point. But it’s an engineering from the ground up. It’s not taking what we do. It’s not taking the U of I CVM curriculum or Iowa State’s curriculum or Purdue’s or Ohio, whoever’s. It’s not taking that curriculum and saying, Oh, we’re just going to do that online. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. It will not produce the same output. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, we know that, right? That the curriculum as is relies on that contact and the interaction and that- that other stuff just happens because of the way we do it. And that’s how we’ve always done it. So it just works and everybody knows it works. You know, it’s not a- teaching isn’t a science. We like to say it is but it’s not, right? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

It’s an art. You got to figure it out. And I think that’s true for undergraduate. I think that’s true for everybody. It’s a different process. But as we get to saying, oh, you’re going to do it online, it’s a rebuild. It’s a re-engineering of how we would teach and how you set that and- and does it work? Yeah, it’s got to be- 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So are we teaching a physical skill thing? Like, you can’t all be remote. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Right. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

You’re going to have to. You can’t learn surgery. Not here. But I think those become the same questions being asked in medical schools, the same question are there opportunities to re-engineer curriculum to make it more effective and efficient? 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

For both the learner and the- because there’s a- University of Arizona is a three year veteran curriculum. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Really? Didn’t realize that. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

So they go three years year round. Same number of credits we have. Three years, year round. They start in August and three Augusts later, they finish. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

So there’s no summer. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

No summers, no winter breaks. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Okay. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

If you calculate it out, you can get it done. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. There’s also some good experiences that happen in those periods. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And their argument is, is that we’re thinking about student debt. So if they charge- let’s just use a stupid number, 50 grand a year, so it’s 200 grand, just tuition and fees to go to that school, which it’s higher than. But I’m just trying to get… 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. Simple math. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

But there’s also four years of lost salary. And if starting a veterinarian’s making $100,000 a year, you’re giving up $100,000. So if I do it in three years, even if the tuition is the same, I’m $100,000 ahead because I’m earning salary earlier. So that’s 100,000 that would come off of debt. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

My gears are churning with a lot of different thoughts on that. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. So I mean- and so they- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

The maturity part and coming out of- yeah interesting. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And so it’s a grand experiment- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

There’s a market for everything. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah it’s a grand experiment. Is it going to work out, who knows. I don’t think they know if it’s going to work but it’s that level of innovation. I think we’re going to see because of smaller sizes. Competition for seats. What does the degree need to look like? What do they really need to know? And then this pandemic thing kind of something over the top that hmm, maybe they were doing okay, but maybe there’s some- we got to shake and bake a little bit, too, to figure out what’s going to work. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Interesting. Okay. Well, that gives me a little insight to something. The numbers on the badges that I’m seeing. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yes. The official badge. Yes. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Oh, it’s- I’m starting to see their friend groups. I feel so invested in these students that I’ve only been here for a couple months. You should’ve seen me. The first week, I was just like the welcoming committee coming in with my coffee and opening doors, and I felt like I was personally responsible. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

They had some- I got out of here late last night and they were in some practical exam and I said “what you all doing here?” And they were like, “Who are you and why are you asking questions?” They were little first years. I was like, “It’s okay, I have a badge too”. Just mine doesn’t have a number on it. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Mine has the numbers. Just from a long time ago. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. We had an old number. I could probably get my vet school badge. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

And you were wearing like a suit and everything yesterday. So you probably looked a little intimidating, but it was orange and blue. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Fit right in. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

I should have fit it but I scared them last night. So the poor little guys, were just- were scared. I’m glad they do put the numbers on there because us old people can’t remember which class they’re in because once you’ve had them- 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

You’re like, you’ve been here a while, but I don’t know which one of you. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. What are you coming to talk to me about? 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

And where are you at? You see in the hallway like, oh, which class are you in? So the context helps us old people remember who you are. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Well, I’m excited to be here and kind of watch them through the evolution. And I’ve seen my friends, of course, go through it and now be out in industry. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

What’s fun watching is they do really grow up a lot. They’re very different people as year fours than they are as year ones. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

Yeah. And right now, all they’ve ever known as being a student. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

Yeah. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a fun process to watch. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

That’s why they feel so young to me, I think is that they’ve only ever been a student. 

Dr. Jim Lowe 

That’s a true statement. 

Kaylee Hillinger 

So. Huh. Well, thanks for the chat. In addition to this podcast, we offer a wide range of learning opportunities, including a master of veterinary science degree. Which you heard Jim reference. We’re accepting applications for the spring 2024 semester. To learn more about this program, please visit vetmed.Illinois.edu/MVS. Thanks for listening.